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 Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013 
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
Rob needs help here - "electronics" are not his bag at all, he doesn't even have a multimeter.
My thoughts below, correct me someone if I'm obviously wrong :roll:

So... 9 out of 10 it runs. When very cold out it wont play ball.

Coil pack, plugs & injectors - probably OK (it runs on 4 when it decides to start).
Water Temp, Air Temp, MAP Sensor (built into ECU), TPS, O2/Lambda (if it has one in its exhaust, - Rob ??) - None of these should stop the engine running, faults should make the ECU substitute base values - ie LIMP mode.

Leaving the likely candidates....
CRANK SENSOR - now replaced. Very Probably OK.
CAM SENSOR - tells the ECU which is No1 cyl on compression stroke. This would probably fail to safe, and ECU would not start the engine. IF I was suspecting a sensor this is now it !
ECU - (as discussed at length with Rob) - ECU unpowered due to cold cranking amps being diverted/taken by the starter. Easy check with an ammeter.
WIRING - broken or intermittent make/break wire, connector fault, shield not properly terminated. Needs each individual ECU loom sensor & device wire buzzed through & continuity & sensor resistances checked off.

Anyway... all bloody annoying. I'm seeing Rob over New Year - will take a multimeter & if needed will borrow a mate & his PicoScope to check the sensor waveforms.

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Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:23 pm
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
MattD wrote:
Rob needs help here - "electronics" are not his bag at all, he doesn't even have a multimeter.
My thoughts below, correct me someone if I'm obviously wrong :roll:

So... 9 out of 10 it runs. When very cold out it wont play ball.

Coil pack, plugs & injectors - probably OK (it runs on 4 when it decides to start).
Water Temp, Air Temp, MAP Sensor (built into ECU), TPS, O2/Lambda (if it has one in its exhaust, - Rob ??) - None of these should stop the engine running, faults should make the ECU substitute base values - ie LIMP mode.

Leaving the likely candidates....
CRANK SENSOR - now replaced. Very Probably OK.
CAM SENSOR - tells the ECU which is No1 cyl on compression stroke. This would probably fail to safe, and ECU would not start the engine. IF I was suspecting a sensor this is now it !
ECU - (as discussed at length with Rob) - ECU unpowered due to cold cranking amps being diverted/taken by the starter. Easy check with an ammeter.
WIRING - broken or intermittent make/break wire, connector fault, shield not properly terminated. Needs each individual ECU loom sensor & device wire buzzed through & continuity & sensor resistances checked off.

Anyway... all bloody annoying. I'm seeing Rob over New Year - will take a multimeter & if needed will borrow a mate & his PicoScope to check the sensor waveforms.

The only statement not correct re --- sensors is --- it doesn't have a lambda sensor in the collector all though I did get one made into it. Paul Dunnell doesn't use them , can't remember what his reason was when asked :lol:

I don't think it's relevant but this morning I've just noticed the charger light flickering as I put it on ---- checked out the inline fuse connector and the threaded part was broken. So , when the green light shows bright it's charging then when out it's supposed to be topped up then continues to monitor and top up if need be. It's a possibility that there was plenty to whizz the starter around but still be low on power for the ecu --- if that bad connection was happening before but I assumed she was charged fully :? I'll report later now I've made a straight through connection/no fuse :wink:

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Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:59 pm
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
Rob.

Do you even have a cam sensor? No need for the lambda in competition, as it is cut out during full throttle & of course on over run. They only seem to work on constant loads (speed, throttle position). I have a lambda on mine & it tried to remap, of course the running conditions vary to much. So i periodically have to reload the original map, guess I should just disconnect it.

I can only re emphasize my own experience with the various engines in my Stylus. If the zetec doesnt start within 2 turns it wont. I have to recharge the battery to more than full, even jumping it with what seems a good battery wont do it. Once started it is OK all day long, even if the engine gets stone cold again.

I dont believe its an ECU fault, as mentioned once started its fine. If any of the other sensors didnt work (temp etc) the engine would still try, even if it didnt start.

On my Stylus I still have a big (heavy) battery. I was thinking of fitting a small light weight unit & decided that if I did I would fit the jump connections like the single seater guys have. So on initial starts I could also jump it.

Good luck.


Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:17 pm
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
I've heard of crank sensor probs with the shielding not being correct causing problems starting.

Are you using a Cam sensor too?

Just to let you know you are not alone in the pain of engine trouble. My Zetec upgrade has almost resulted in me pouring petrol on the car and lighting it though frustration. So I feel your pain. And mine included 8 bent exhaust valves :(


Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:28 pm
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
Couldn't you contact Paul Dunnell and get the ecu program and hook it up to the computer to see if its throwing up any faults.
Or could you send it (ecu) to him for him to assess to see if its got any faults.

Would be a shame to waste a day checking sensors if its the ecu at fault.

This is making me worried as im planning to go injection early next year. I got the ATpower TB's from him and they fit under the bonnet.
I dont want to be stuck on tour with a Fury that doesn't start. :?


Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:39 pm
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
Got ATs on mine with an Emerald ECU. Just don't touch the balance.....a nightmare to set back up....


Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:08 am
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
pigeondave wrote:
Couldn't you contact Paul Dunnell and get the ecu program and hook it up to the computer to see if its throwing up any faults.
Or could you send it (ecu) to him for him to assess to see if its got any faults.


The ECU has been back to Dunnell for test already. It's fine, hence my other comments.
Rob has the ECU diagnostic software, but can't drive it :-)
IIRC it's locked, you can't see the map tables (like weber alpha), it's just a sensor checking device.

Robs uses the cam sensor to do the cyl 1&4 phase for fully sequential spark & fuel - it's not doing wasted spark.

My Zetec on Jenveys & Omex was trouble free at 175hp spec.
Got it mapped properly once & never had to touch it again.
Stupidly.... I sold it :-(

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Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:36 am
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
H'mmm , well now I'm really confused , as if I wasn't already :? Checked the charger , that I bypassed the flickering fuse yesterday , and it showed fully charged (can't be any connection though surely :?: because the light stayed on without flickering before , when charging)
Thought , it won't start but I'll just try her ------started on the 2nd turn without any issues , popping or misfires :? :? :?
There's just no bloody constants with my engine . Won't start --- check all wiring ----- battery full --- then put new crank sensor on ---- STARTS .Sounds logical to assume it was crank sensor then next time I need it to start on a fully charged battery at GOODWOOD -- she says '' sod you , I'm not playing today '' :twisted:

Anyway , I have found the software disc amongst my junk in the office and phoned Paul Dunnell to remind me of the password for it ------------------ so Matt can have fun with a laptop looking for ' her ' reason for being OFF with me :lol:

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I just love the Stylus but she keeps swallowing £££ !
[b]Alfa Red 159 2.4 jtdm ti 260bhp 365lbft / BilsteinB12 + Adjustable Powerflex camber/castor bushes. Red STYLUS 2lt zetec 231bhp 185lbft Dunnell . RED 1972 Alfa 2lt GTAm replica 170bhp.


Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:16 pm
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
stylussprinter wrote:
Anyway , I have found the software disc amongst my junk in the office and phoned Paul Dunnell to remind me of the password for it ------------------ so Matt can have fun with a laptop looking for ' her ' reason for being OFF with me :lol:


Rob has your loom got the ecu to computer wires on it?
I think its an RS 232 connector that connects in to the computer.
If not you'll need the little pins that go into the plug of the ecu to run some new wires.
These can be a pain to get hold of.

Thinking about it my TPS sensor cable broke at the ecu plug end. Might be worth checking some of these while you're under there.


Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:12 pm
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
pigeondave wrote:
stylussprinter wrote:
Anyway , I have found the software disc amongst my junk in the office and phoned Paul Dunnell to remind me of the password for it ------------------ so Matt can have fun with a laptop looking for ' her ' reason for being OFF with me :lol:


Rob has your loom got the ecu to computer wires on it?
I think its an RS 232 connector that connects in to the computer.
If not you'll need the little pins that go into the plug of the ecu to run some new wires.
These can be a pain to get hold of.

Thinking about it my TPS sensor cable broke at the ecu plug end. Might be worth checking some of these while you're under there.


Yes , thanks Dave I wired the laptop extention to ecu when I changed to throttle bodies on this engine. The multi pin plug in is velcro'd under the dash below the steering wheel. I tried plugging in a laptop years ago to see what was going on and couldn't make out what to do with it at all .
The really small pins for my race loom are so tiny and the wire is only 1.25mm on the outside plastic , the actual wire is silver so had to buy a specific wire cutter / stripper at £50 to wire the whole car up. Dunnell does road and race ECU and looms but big price difference.

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I just love the Stylus but she keeps swallowing £££ !
[b]Alfa Red 159 2.4 jtdm ti 260bhp 365lbft / BilsteinB12 + Adjustable Powerflex camber/castor bushes. Red STYLUS 2lt zetec 231bhp 185lbft Dunnell . RED 1972 Alfa 2lt GTAm replica 170bhp.


Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:37 pm
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
He (Paul) said having a race loom on a road car is a waste of money so I wont get one.. (fighting the urge).
I think its probably Spec55 wire so its good, but expensive.

I know of a guy (friend of a friend) building a 7 type monster with a 450bhp cosworth turbo engine. He's got a spec55 loom, it was around the £1k mark. He's also got the liferacing ecu so its a proper setup with no expense spared.

Good luck tracking down the gremlin Rob.


Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:59 pm
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
I would be inclined to try a fully charged jump battery and feed the ECU direct from the battery as this can cause a lot of starting issues as Matt said when cranking the ECU may not have enough juice to run. Plugging laptop in to check all sensors are being seen and giving correct readings but you know Sod's law plug in laptop to watch and it will start every time :twisted:

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Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:08 pm
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
hearbear wrote:
I would be inclined to try a fully charged jump battery and feed the ECU direct from the battery as this can cause a lot of starting issues as Matt said when cranking the ECU may not have enough juice to run. Plugging laptop in to check all sensors are being seen and giving correct readings but you know Sod's law plug in laptop to watch and it will start every time :twisted:


That was exactly Matt's first advice last week when I couldn't start it --- didn't have a decent battery to use so just guessed the crank sensor wasn't sending messages to the ecu ---------- then of course it started immediately so assumed it was sorted until at GOODWOOD :oops:

_________________
I just love the Stylus but she keeps swallowing £££ !
[b]Alfa Red 159 2.4 jtdm ti 260bhp 365lbft / BilsteinB12 + Adjustable Powerflex camber/castor bushes. Red STYLUS 2lt zetec 231bhp 185lbft Dunnell . RED 1972 Alfa 2lt GTAm replica 170bhp.


Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:36 pm
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
This may be why when you put fan heater on it it would then start as it would be drawing less current to start a warm engine than a cold one.

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Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:46 am
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Post Re: Possible Goodwood test day on 14th December 2013
hearbear wrote:
This may be why when you put fan heater on it it would then start as it would be drawing less current to start a warm engine than a cold one.


I'll try starting it again later today just to see if it was a total ' fluke ' that it started after charged again with the wiring fuse/bypassed :roll: I'm still unconvinced it's sorted now , so will try it daily for a while :wink:

_________________
I just love the Stylus but she keeps swallowing £££ !
[b]Alfa Red 159 2.4 jtdm ti 260bhp 365lbft / BilsteinB12 + Adjustable Powerflex camber/castor bushes. Red STYLUS 2lt zetec 231bhp 185lbft Dunnell . RED 1972 Alfa 2lt GTAm replica 170bhp.


Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:13 am
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