clubstylus

kevp wrote:The Valves in the 1.8 zetec are the same as the 2.0, as are the cams (after-market). So you could fit the existing head to a 2.0l bottom for easy/cheap power/torque increase.

When I was looking into zetec tweaking, pretty sure that Paul Dunnell told me a 1.8 head couldnt go onto the 2.0 bottom end. I had one in the shed (still do if anyone wants it) & asked if he could mod this to suit, whilst I still had the unmodifed 2ltr one running in the car. A polite but firm NO was the answer. Something to do with piston height & combustion chamber size. As the 1.8 bore is smaller (80.6 vs 84. i would presume it raises the CR beyond acceptable limits.

Identification wise - Wiki says this... The Zetec (SILVERTOP) can be identified by having a silver cam cover with "DOHC 16v" on the bottom left. The Zetec-E (SILVERTOP) has "ZETEC 16v" on the bottom left, and the Zetec-R (BLACKTOP) has a black plastic cam cover. The Focus RS and ST170 (SVT) are both Zetec-R engines, despite being branded Duratec.

DH2 wrote:

cseng wrote:welcome anyone who can sway me

It was designed in the 80s and is made of pig iron?

DH2

there is that
not everything from the 80s is bad though!
Calum

DH2 wrote:

cseng wrote:welcome anyone who can sway me

It was designed in the 80s and is made of pig iron?

DH2

These days tend to agree - all alloy where possible now - but it dont come cheap

stylussprinter wrote:Seeing as you're so stuck on the ST170 , I'll throw in the fact that one of my competitors has a 615kgs MK1 Escort spaceframe fitted with the ST170 engine ------------ it has 280bhp plus runs on 10 inch rear 8 inch front slicks ---
The ' rub ' is that my little 600kgs Stylus 231bhp silvertop , on road B1 tyres still beats it , granted not by a lot but enough

a win is a win though! is that due to driver more than machine or is the escort not setup as well? on paper you would think it quicker but is more than power alone, as my dad always says is the sum of the parts. The 280hp stands out to me though, that in a stylus would be good, is that NA? I would assume is a mega money car!

Calum

MattD wrote:When I was looking into zetec tweaking, pretty sure that Paul Dunnell told me a 1.8 head couldnt go onto the 2.0 bottom end. I had one in the shed (still do if anyone wants it) & asked if he could mod this to suit, whilst I still had the unmodifed 2ltr one running in the car. A polite but firm NO was the answer. Something to do with piston height & combustion chamber size. As the 1.8 bore is smaller (80.6 vs 84. i would presume it raises the CR beyond acceptable limits.

There seem to be a myriad of threads on the internet (reliable source, I know ) suggesting it is possible. Many folk claiming they're running 1.8 heads with 2.0 cams, a 2.0 block and a 2.0 head gasket. The difference appears to be in the size of the combustion chamber. Whether it is actually an issue with piston clearance or whether it is overcome by using the thicker head gasket, I don't know. Only going on what hearsay is out there to read.

The best thread I found - as it has actual pictures which are helpful rather than a bunch of blokes saying "Yeah mate, I did it..." or "Nah mate it'll blow up..." - was this one on Locost Builders: http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthr ... tid=103017

Dunnell's opinion counts for a lot though, I guess.

MattD wrote:

DH2 wrote:

cseng wrote:welcome anyone who can sway me

It was designed in the 80s and is made of pig iron?

DH2

These days tend to agree - all alloy where possible now - but it dont come cheap

Agree with the all alloy option but in the interest of not spending too much was trying to keep things simple regarding interfaces with existing good bits. Having a look at the musing section of DH2's website is the same thoughts I have gone through in my head, was looking for s2000 engine then vauxhall then thought something completely diffrent as I said previously really like the alfa engines, the volvo engine is craking my dad had one of the first 850s, spoilt it by going FWD in my opinion, but lovely engine. In the end came back to zetec simple reasons I dont need to modify exhaust route, I can use existing bellhousing clutch flywheel etc, and while having a massive amount of power would be nice I don't think I need it, I think 200hp RW would make the car competitive (supossing my driving is competitive) while still being usable for touring, there are other options to get there obviously but think Zetec may be cheapest- perhaps time for a spreadsheet!.

Out of a matter of intrest any one know Block + head weights for Zetec vs Duratec vs Sigma?

Calum

MattD wrote:These days tend to agree - all alloy where possible now - but it dont come cheap

Silvertops at least are thin on the ground these days I believe, but there's hundreds of thousands of donor engines around for Duratec HE, for example.
They aren't expensive, but changing from one to the other can be.

DH2

cseng wrote:

stylussprinter wrote:Seeing as you're so stuck on the ST170 , I'll throw in the fact that one of my competitors has a 615kgs MK1 Escort spaceframe fitted with the ST170 engine ------------ it has 280bhp plus runs on 10 inch rear 8 inch front slicks ---
The ' rub ' is that my little 600kgs Stylus 231bhp silvertop , on road B1 tyres still beats it , granted not by a lot but enough

a win is a win though! is that due to driver more than machine or is the escort not setup as well? on paper you would think it quicker but is more than power alone, as my dad always says is the sum of the parts. The 280hp stands out to me though, that in a stylus would be good, is that NA? I would assume is a mega money car!

Calum

It's naturally aspirated and the driver has won oval championships over a 20 year period before changing to sprints. The other point is his personal driving style ie. tail out as opposed to ' smooth ' calculated approach/apex/exit --- looks stunning though in the ALAN MANN colour scheme --- I was amazed when first meeting him and being told it weighed 615kgs but then once the boot/bonnet were off all that could be seen were two 45mm tubes left/right and front to back with some tiny cross members.
We are normally just over a second apart on good dry tarmac but if wet and he changes to AVON soft wets he's VERY close or faster by a second ---- but as luck has it on most occasions the afternoon dries out for me to just sneak a win

cseng wrote:Out of a matter of intrest any one know Block + head weights for Zetec vs Duratec vs Sigma?

I've not actually weighed them all on the same scales, but I have weighed my Sigma at 70kgs (bare).
I believe the Duratec HE is 10-15kgs heavier - it's physically larger, though the family resemblance is clear and interesting.
Not sure on the Zetec E, "the internets" suggests it is over 100kgs. Next time we have my neighbours out of his car, I'll weigh it.

DH2

June 2009 Rob, now where did the time go ?!!

DH2 wrote:

cseng wrote:Out of a matter of intrest any one know Block + head weights for Zetec vs Duratec vs Sigma?

I've not actually weighed them all on the same scales, but I have weighed my Sigma at 70kgs (bare).
I believe the Duratec HE is 10-15kgs heavier - it's physically larger, though the family resemblance is clear and interesting.
Not sure on the Zetec E, "the internets" suggests it is over 100kgs. Next time we have my neighbours out of his car, I'll weigh it.

DH2

a good 15-20kg more than an equivelent Duratec thats food for thought!

I would think, while it is posible, 200hp RW from the sigma would be an expensive ask compared to the Duratec/ Zetec, indeed would it be achievable NA?.

Perhaps I need to reconcider- sell 1.8 zetec c/w managment exhuast and all bits and go duratec then get glassing up the side exhaust, am I correct in thinking duratec inlet ex are oposed to the zetec?

Re escort does not look spaceframed thats a well done car, sideways doesn't get you forward quickly however!

Calum

cseng wrote: a good 15-20kg more than an equivelent Duratec thats food for thought!

I would think, while it is posible, 200hp RW from the sigma would be an expensive ask compared to the Duratec/ Zetec, indeed would it be achievable NA?.

Perhaps I need to reconcider- sell 1.8 zetec c/w managment exhuast and all bits and go duratec then get glassing up the side exhaust, am I correct in thinking duratec inlet ex are oposed to the zetec?

Easily that much weight difference I would have thought.
You probably could get 200rwhp from a Sigma, I expect the F3 or Super1600 rally cars did it, but it would not be a cheap exercise.
Correct, both Duratec and Sigma have inlet and exhaust on the opposite side to the Zetec.

I wouldn't get too hung up on 200rwhp, not least because it may well bring a load of other issues, like having to strengthen the rest of the drivetrain. As Robs point earlier confirms, it's not all about power. Personally I'm deliberately not wanting more than 200 at the crank...

DH2

yeah 200 RW is a dream I will try not to get to hung up on it really just want to be competitive and finding the current engine a little bit dull despite the supposed power, my daily driver (120D) is as quick I would say at the moment which is a little disapointing, engine runs ok mixture apears to be correct going by plug burn colour alone but throttle response is poor is popping a bit on overrun too. Not really had much oportunity to play with it however, week after I bought it got sent to Norway for work and have had about three days home since, too many boring evenings with nothing but the internet for company! So perhaps if I can check timing, ensure there are no air leaks in induction system and give it a service I might find this approves.

I know the weber system is good and people like it but is so restrictive dont even think timing can be adjusted so really has to go!

Calum

MattD wrote:

kevp wrote:The Valves in the 1.8 zetec are the same as the 2.0, as are the cams (after-market). So you could fit the existing head to a 2.0l bottom for easy/cheap power/torque increase.

When I was looking into zetec tweaking, pretty sure that Paul Dunnell told me a 1.8 head couldnt go onto the 2.0 bottom end. I had one in the shed (still do if anyone wants it) & asked if he could mod this to suit, whilst I still had the unmodifed 2ltr one running in the car. A polite but firm NO was the answer. Something to do with piston height & combustion chamber size. As the 1.8 bore is smaller (80.6 vs 84. i would presume it raises the CR beyond acceptable limits.

Oops missed the obvious - wrong bore size 1.8 - 2.0. Dont know about compression - sorry.

To see the difference in silver/blacktop. Black top has external Water Pump & an engine mount on the front (pulley end) of engine. The oil filter is direct on the block. The heads are interchangeable but the cam belt requires a new idler pulley to mounted or run an Alfa cam belt (cant remember the size, but I do have the info or which way round ie silver to black or black to silver top)


Rob, my silvertop has solid lifters so will rev higher than the hydraulic head. I have a friend with triple springs on solid lifters in his solver top. Will rev way past 9000. He does autocross (I think).


Another option is to turbo-charge, which due to the pig iron is very reliable & strong. Just by keeping the boost low you can get 300bhp & run the engine forever. I have seen 700+ on a zetec, but need to rebuild often, (thats every 2 years for my mileage).


So my current opinion is - if you need to replace the engine with a zetec unit. It may as well be the ST170 as the valves & ports are the largest without modifications & the bottom end is the strongest in its standard set up. Just port the manifold to suit. Dont know about the oil pick up though in respect to the shortened sump. It may just be a straight swap though like the earlier zetecs.

Kev -- I know you can fit solids but was merely telling Calum that his car hasn't got them. Dunnell goes higher in rev's than mine with his special hyd lifters and still without steel crank
The only thing stopping me going to 9000rpm is longevity --- ie. no end of season rebuilds