MSA compliant rollbar

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se7ensport
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MSA compliant rollbar

Post by se7ensport »

Question to the forum although I suspect its really one for Matt D...

I want a rollbar that will pass the new requirements for 2016, it needs to be taller than the original offering and have rear facing stays - I currently have a fury rollbar that is 2inch taller than standard, but it has forward facing stays so is no longer compliant.

Is there one available from SSC now or in the near future that will fit the existing chassis?


Cheers
Alex

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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by stylussprinter »

The stays need to be attached at the top of the rollbar then slant down at 30 degrees and be welded to the chassis rails. Height wise , there's no fixed height , it has to be personal to you ie. with your helmet on sitting in the car , the bar MUST be 50mm above the helmet. In my case that means 23 inches from memory but that's no guide for yours.
I just love the Stylus but she keeps swallowing £££ !
Alfa Red 159 2.4 jtdm ti 260bhp 365lbft / BilsteinB12 + Adjustable Powerflex camber/castor bushes. Red STYLUS 2lt zetec 231bhp 185lbft Dunnell . RED 1972 Alfa 2lt GTAm replica 170bhp.

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se7ensport
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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by se7ensport »

I thought your rear stays attached midway, aren't you also going to have an issue with scrutineers?

Re: "must be welded to the chassis", I've been through the bluebook forwards and backwards, bolted in is fine:
"1.3.3. Backstays. These are compulsory and must be
attached near the roofline and near the top outer bends
of the main rollbar on both sides of the car. They must
make an angle of at least 30° with the vertical, must run
rearwards and be straight and as close as possible to
he interior side panels of the bodyshell. Their materials
specification, diameter and thickness must be as
defined in 1.4.1.
Their mountings must be reinforced by plates. Each
backstay should be secured by bolts having a
cumulative section area at least two thirds of that
recommended for each rollbar leg mounting in 1.3.2
above, and with identical reinforcement plates of a least
60cm2 area (see drawing K19).
A single bolt in double shear is permitted, providing it is
of adequate section and strength (see drawing K20)
and provided that a bush is welded into the backstay.

The mounting feet may alternatively be welded direct to
the reinforcement plate."

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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by stylussprinter »

I may well have trouble with scrutes but we'll see . If I do then that'll be the end of my Stylus competition years. If I spend money it'll only be on the classic Alfa because it won't lose money :!: When I say welded I mean't the chassis fixings that the stays '' can '' bolt to. ie the tubes that pass through the chassis have to be flush with the outside of the tubes and MUST be welded at BOTH ends. This is why I've not done anything. It really is a major job/cost on a car already built --- easy if you're building at the pre - body fit stage.
I do have crush tubes but not welded.
I just love the Stylus but she keeps swallowing £££ !
Alfa Red 159 2.4 jtdm ti 260bhp 365lbft / BilsteinB12 + Adjustable Powerflex camber/castor bushes. Red STYLUS 2lt zetec 231bhp 185lbft Dunnell . RED 1972 Alfa 2lt GTAm replica 170bhp.

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se7ensport
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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by se7ensport »

I get your clarification, that makes sense.

I was looking at doing a few sprints as I've enjoyed competing in autosolos, the rollbar and tyre list uncertainty have certainly created a pain for kit cars and added to my planned expenditure which will ultimately mean less events this year.

I am also struggling to find competitive 1a tyres in 13inch, A539s are old technology and take too long to warm up, so I'm now looking at rainexpert 3s in 185/70 rear and 175/65 front, and sticking with Avon CR500s for 1b.

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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by stylussprinter »

The Avon CR500 's are good in wet and dry but best dry tyre in the new rules will be the Toyo R888 R's --- get the softer one's if you get a choice.
I just love the Stylus but she keeps swallowing £££ !
Alfa Red 159 2.4 jtdm ti 260bhp 365lbft / BilsteinB12 + Adjustable Powerflex camber/castor bushes. Red STYLUS 2lt zetec 231bhp 185lbft Dunnell . RED 1972 Alfa 2lt GTAm replica 170bhp.

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kevp
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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by kevp »

Forward facing stays are acceptable on open cars. MSA 2016 K 1.6.2

Height of bar 50mm above helmet line with a minimum height of 720mm from top of seat cushion.

Dont know if that helps.

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se7ensport
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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by se7ensport »

Cheers Kev, that's useful to know on a future design, but mine had 35mm stays and minimum is 38mm.

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MattD
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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by MattD »

kevp wrote:Forward facing stays are acceptable on open cars. MSA 2016 K 1.6.2

Height of bar 50mm above helmet line with a minimum height of 720mm from top of seat cushion.

Dont know if that helps.
Only applies to MSA certificated roll bars, where the MSA has tested a sample rollbar & issued the supporting certificate or the manufacturer has applied a tamperproof sticker.
None of the previously supplied SSC bars have this, so are therefore non compliant.
So all non-certified bars have to be made to the requirements of K1 or K2 (up to 2ltr), or K3 or K4 (full cage, over 2 ltr), all of which require rear facing stays at 30 degrees.
SSC Stylus Integrale Turbo16V
Kit 1999, OTR 2002, and still tweaking....

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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by MattD »

se7ensport wrote:Question to the forum although I suspect its really one for Matt D...

I want a rollbar that will pass the new requirements for 2016, it needs to be taller than the original offering and have rear facing stays - I currently have a fury rollbar that is 2inch taller than standard, but it has forward facing stays so is no longer compliant.

Is there one available from SSC now or in the near future that will fit the existing chassis?

Cheers
Alex
Hi Alex

This is a difficult one.... as in most cases (ie MSA compliant height), the 30degree layback of the rear stays will go through the rear (painted) bodywork, similar to Tony's rotary build.
Image

Something I have discussed with several owners, but not one I've actually had a go at making, so definitely not an off the shelf job.
Needs to be specific to your own seat/helmet height combination anyway.

At present there is no demand to justify SSC doing an MSA compliant ROPS (circa £5K to get it approved), so any roll hoop or roll cage needs to be made exactly to the materials & drawings in section K of the blue book. No extra bends, or forward stays allowed.
(Edit) Forward stays OK, but wont count, so would need rear stays too. If you main hoop is 2"/50mm, might be better off modifying the one you have.

Rgds
Matt
SSC Stylus Integrale Turbo16V
Kit 1999, OTR 2002, and still tweaking....

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kevp
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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by kevp »

MattD wrote:
kevp wrote:Forward facing stays are acceptable on open cars. MSA 2016 K 1.6.2

Height of bar 50mm above helmet line with a minimum height of 720mm from top of seat cushion.

Dont know if that helps.
Only applies to MSA certificated roll bars, where the MSA has tested a sample rollbar & issued the supporting certificate or the manufacturer has applied a tamperproof sticker.
None of the previously supplied SSC bars have this, so are therefore non compliant.
So all non-certified bars have to be made to the requirements of K1 or K2 (up to 2ltr), or K3 or K4 (full cage, over 2 ltr), all of which require rear facing stays at 30 degrees.
Hi Matt

Not on the 2016 copy Im looking at.

Just says anyone wanting to design their own ROPS can design as they please. But it would have to be backed up with serious calculations I suspect..

Otherwise design to K1 Minimum size for main hoop & stays 48.3mm.


Kev

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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by stylussprinter »

48.3mm's is what I have :wink:
I just love the Stylus but she keeps swallowing £££ !
Alfa Red 159 2.4 jtdm ti 260bhp 365lbft / BilsteinB12 + Adjustable Powerflex camber/castor bushes. Red STYLUS 2lt zetec 231bhp 185lbft Dunnell . RED 1972 Alfa 2lt GTAm replica 170bhp.

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MattD
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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by MattD »

kevp wrote:
MattD wrote:
kevp wrote:Forward facing stays are acceptable on open cars. MSA 2016 K 1.6.2

Height of bar 50mm above helmet line with a minimum height of 720mm from top of seat cushion.

Dont know if that helps.
Only applies to MSA certificated roll bars, where the MSA has tested a sample rollbar & issued the supporting certificate or the manufacturer has applied a tamperproof sticker.
None of the previously supplied SSC bars have this, so are therefore non compliant.
So all non-certified bars have to be made to the requirements of K1 or K2 (up to 2ltr), or K3 or K4 (full cage, over 2 ltr), all of which require rear facing stays at 30 degrees.
Hi Matt

Not on the 2016 copy Im looking at.

Just says anyone wanting to design their own ROPS can design as they please. But it would have to be backed up with serious calculations I suspect..

Otherwise design to K1 Minimum size for main hoop & stays 48.3mm.


Kev
Interesting... Pm me a copy !!
SSC Stylus Integrale Turbo16V
Kit 1999, OTR 2002, and still tweaking....

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kevp
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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by kevp »

I have re-read.

The reason for having an MSA certified ROPS enables you to - design outside of the listed scopes (doubt anyone would without good reason) & use a lighter material (as the quality, bends, design, weld should be of a very high standard, hence superior protection). So your £5k investment gains you weight & quality basically.

Otherwise follow the rules.

Matt - for my new chassis :wink: I would prefer the 48.3mm fixed to something a tad better than 1" Square chassis. Due care on weight/design considered. The Caged Phoenix (?) chassis design is ideal from a race spec point of view.
But I couldnt see a reason to not make a common Stylus ROP with a standard nominal height. As a guideline Im 6.2 to 6.3 without helmet an my top hoop is 1020mm from floor. I have the original fiberglass seats with no padding.
Just as a suggestion though.


MSA Link https://www.msauk.org/assets/2016bbcomp ... -res-1.pdf page 158 onwards

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Re: MSA compliant rollbar

Post by stylussprinter »

It would be attached to the rear chassis sides which are 50x25mm
I just love the Stylus but she keeps swallowing £££ !
Alfa Red 159 2.4 jtdm ti 260bhp 365lbft / BilsteinB12 + Adjustable Powerflex camber/castor bushes. Red STYLUS 2lt zetec 231bhp 185lbft Dunnell . RED 1972 Alfa 2lt GTAm replica 170bhp.

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