Lowering the Car

[CMA]

Just doing some planning ahead for longer term plans for the Stylus

I've got a set of the "dipped" or "bent" rear arms (thanks Dave) so I can lower the rear of the car up to 50mm easily enough.

But how do I lower the front the same? My spring seats are not far off the bottom. Do I just need shorter springs? but this might leave me with too little piston movement, but I've not measured things yet. Or do I need to get some shorter shocks & Springs which are obviously going to cost £££ or am I looking at getting some new rockers? and are the existing lower arms going to be ok?

Anything else I should consider while thinking and planning this?

[stylussprinter]

Just doing some planning ahead for longer term plans for the Stylus

I've got a set of the "dipped" or "bent" rear arms (thanks Dave) so I can lower the rear of the car up to 50mm easily enough.

But how do I lower the front the same? My spring seats are not far off the bottom. Do I just need shorter springs? but this might leave me with too little piston movement, but I've not measured things yet. Or do I need to get some shorter shocks & Springs which are obviously going to cost £££ or am I looking at getting some new rockers? and are the existing lower arms going to be ok?

Anything else I should consider while thinking and planning this?

I have covered this before but if you want a cheap solution for the front lowering you can do it as I did before buying new shocks/springs for a proper job. I wanted to check that it would work well , also to find out how much , if any , body cutting would be neeeded ---- then to put it back as standard if necessary.
Find some thickwall tube that will only just allow the 1/2 inch shock bolts to slip through .
Measure the gap accurately inside the lower shock mount sides (possibly 50mm or less).
Cut off two pieces of the ' tube ' at 50mm if that's the measurement , remove the lower bolts/shocks from the mounts & bolt these two pieces of tube into the lower mounts.
Now you can measure the accurate distance between the two pieces of tube.
Allowing for the curvature of those tube pieces , cut two lengths of 25mm x 6mm gauge steel bar & shape to tightly fit between the two tube pieces.
Weld them to the very outside edges of the tubes , leaving the gap between those bars to be the lower shock mounts.
At 70mm from each bolt centre , drill 1/2 inch holes through both parallel bars --- these are now the lower shock mounts.

This will cost you almost now't . I ran my car this way for several years untill I had the cash to change the shocks/springs etc. When you put the shocks back in , the car will drop onto the wheel arches if you haven't wound the spring seats up before .
The effect on the spring rate will be to slightly soften them due to the new angle of fitment but with your ARB it won't matter unless you plan to start competing and get serious about chassis tuning and the associated bodywork mod's re -- arches.

OTHER things you mentioned ---- Well , you won't be able to just put your original rear shocks back into the new dipped rear links . To acheive the rear lowering and retain adequate piston travel and spring travel without binding ======== you will need a pair of PROTECH (best buy) shocks , 15 inches open length (this allows lowering but still retaining thread for adjustment due to their greater total travel) plus a pair of 10 inch springs to go with them.
Ask the factory to set them in the middle range (there are 3 ranges with 13 clicks per range) then set them at 6 to 8 clicks in that middle range .
Don't forget to set the front shocks at 1/4 to 1/3 rd of total clicks --- not sure which make shocks you have but if 24 clicks then 6 clicks up to 8 clicks ok. If they are PROTECH then you should use range 1 and set to 10 clicks up to 13 clicks.

Hope this will help you Rob.

[CMA]

Not able to fully digest the comments as I'm at work at them moment but will look at it later on when my manager isn't lurking about. I don't suppose you have a picture to illustrate what you're explaining do you?

[stylussprinter]

Not able to fully digest the comments as I'm at work at them moment but will look at it later on when my manager isn't lurking about. I don't suppose you have a picture to illustrate what you're explaining do you?

My front end isn't done that way now so no photos Rob , not since 2004/5 when I calculated what chassis height I wanted then arches cut to allow new calculated shock/spring combo ===== having had this short term lowering device to work it out.
A lot of people within the SYLVA marques manufacturers saw what I'd done at the time (shan't mention names ) which drew comments like oooooh , I don't know about that or I wouldn't mess about with Jeremy's (Phillips) design etc etc . However , not too long afterwards those same people were recommending at the very least , the higher spring rates I was using that prevented bodywork fouling as well as better handling , having cut around 35mm out of the arches . One actually changed the lower shock mount positions and even recommended lower tire pressures that included Toyo tyres too , originally saying 20 to 26 psi --- check it out online ---now Mr Meaker says 17psi after I tested them and told him he was wrong . 20 plus is bloody lethal on track.

[CMA]

PROTECH (best buy) shocks , 15 inches open length (this allows lowering but still retaining thread for adjustment due to their greater total travel) plus a pair of 10 inch springs to go with them.

What is the closed length of these 15" open shocks?

I'm thinking I could fit my dipped arms and get new rear protech shocks/springs but still run at a similar ride height until I can afford the front ones

What open/closed should the fronts be? And what spring length?

I'm not looking to lower it massively like yours Rob just want to give myself some adjustment room as at the current ride height there is not much room to lower either the front of the back and there isn't much travel in the rear shocks

[stylussprinter]

PROTECH (best buy) shocks , 15 inches open length (this allows lowering but still retaining thread for adjustment due to their greater total travel) plus a pair of 10 inch springs to go with them.

What is the closed length of these 15" open shocks? Phone and ask Protech --- I run AVO 14's which have 9 inches closed . Their 15's have 10 inches closed ---- you will find that higher rate lbs springs deflect less too Not sure what rear spring lbs you're running ?

I'm thinking I could fit my dipped arms and get new rear protech shocks/springs but still run at a similar ride height until I can afford the front ones

What open/closed should the fronts be? And what spring length? NOT FACTORY but I advise 11/80's ie 11 open 8 closed also 7.5 is fine too. Then fit a 7 inch spring

I'm not looking to lower it massively like yours Rob just want to give myself some adjustment room as at the current ride height there is not much room to lower either the front of the back and there isn't much travel in the rear shocks

THAT's the whole point in longer shocks ---- they have more travel but need mounting lower(hence dipped arms)to compensate for the extra 2 inches open length ----- I've been banging on about this since 2005 but no one seemed to '' get it '' SPRING rates are very important too ---- the old 180 front 130 rear springs from the factory are totally useless unless you weigh tissue paper and have a '' bike '' engine.

[CMA]

Thought I'd have a play with the new dipped arms tonight. So I popped out the old metalastic bushes. Simples.

Got the new Wisbech bushes I havd used on everything else. Shaped and filed a pair ready for fitting as I had with the others. Came to whacking them in with the old socket trick as I had before and no chance were they fitting....

Turns out the hole in the arm is 26.6mm and the bush is 29mm so really no chance its going to fit. The holes in my old arms are 28.2mm. So looks like the holes are way to small (or bushes way to big).

So any idea where I go from here? do I need to source some other bushes from somewhere? Or do I just need to replace the metalastic bushes with new ones?

[stylussprinter]

Thought I'd have a play with the new dipped arms tonight. So I popped out the old metalastic bushes. Simples.

Got the new Wisbech bushes I havd used on everything else. Shaped and filed a pair ready for fitting as I had with the others. Came to whacking them in with the old socket trick as I had before and no chance were they fitting....

Turns out the hole in the arm is 26.6mm and the bush is 29mm so really no chance its going to fit. The holes in my old arms are 28.2mm. So looks like the holes are way to small (or bushes way to big).

So any idea where I go from here? do I need to source some other bushes from somewhere? Or do I just need to replace the metalastic bushes with new ones?

Get new poly bushes and make them tight fits too , even if it means angling off the front edge with a file . Personally I wouldn't touch metalastics with a bargepole They are difficult to fit and replace , the so called flexibility isn't better than the poly bush and when fitting , you MUST only fit the bolts slack ---- then lower the weight of the car to the ground ----- THEN tighten those bolts really tight . If you tighten when the car is up in the air , when the car is lowered there will immediately be tension in that rubber bush SO they won't function well and nor will they last long
Two choices ---- get correct poly to fit OR cut off the metal bush holder and weld on the size required
Mine are the same diameter as every other poly bush on the car but Tim changed to metalastic rubber one's after that time ---- don't really know why but would guess it was a financial decision ---- they're way cheaper
Just try doing up those bolts using metalastics when the car is on it's wheels though

[CMA]

Welding new bush carriers is defo out of the question so guess I need to find the right size poly bushes.....any one any ideas where I could get some custom ones made up?

As a side note I always do up the suspension nuts with the weight of the car on them, not with the car on the floor but if you jack up on the diff then that simulates the cars final position so far easier than having the car on the floor.

[stylussprinter]

Welding new bush carriers is defo out of the question so guess I need to find the right size poly bushes.....any one any ideas where I could get some custom ones made up?

As a side note I always do up the suspension nuts with the weight of the car on them, not with the car on the floor but if you jack up on the diff then that simulates the cars final position so far easier than having the car on the floor.

Best thing to do is measure accurately then phone WISBECH ENGINEERING who supplies mine when needed . They may be able either to supply OR cut some down the required diameter on the others Personally , considering that the pivot will actually be the centre metal tube moving within the outer poly , I'd carefully cut/wear down with abrasive sand/emery paper ---- As long as it is nice and tight to force into the suspension arm it will be fine. Just don't have it looking like a three penny piece

[CMA]

Bushes sorted after having a play on a little lathe

Also had a few emails with ProComp about dampers and springs.

He seems to think 250lb is way too much and something more like 175 - 185lb would be more in the ball park with 200lb being the limit, for my application of fast road with several trackdays. If I was keeping the original shorter dampers then I could see that the lower rate would cause massive issues as there isn't enough travel in the dampers, but with the 15" dampers and dipped arms then I guess there would be more travel so more suited to a softer spring.

Just toying with the idea of buying the 15" open dampers and 10" springs from him or do I take the plunge and take the car to him and see if he thinks other dimensions/springs would be better suited. But obviously thats going to cost £££

[stylussprinter]

[quote="CMA"]Bushes sorted after having a play on a little lathe

Also had a few emails with ProComp about dampers and springs.

He seems to think 250lb is way too much and something more like 175 - 185lb would be more in the ball park with 200lb being the limit, for my application of fast road with several trackdays. If I was keeping the original shorter dampers then I could see that the lower rate would cause massive issues as there isn't enough travel in the dampers, but with the 15" dampers and dipped arms then I guess there would be more travel so more suited to a softer spring.

Just toying with the idea of buying the 15" open dampers and 10" springs from him or do I take the plunge and take the car to him and see if he thinks other dimensions/springs would be better suited. But obviously thats going to cost £££[/quote

My advice is based on my own experience and developement of ' my ' own car on track . It also has to take into account the individual driver's weight .
You must do whatever suits you , the rest is all in my previous posts .I can't say any more really Rob

[MattD]

Hi Rob

I should listen to a man that knows, rather than someone who thinks he does
These little cars are a black art & Rob has been there, tried that, several times.

I can tell you that I run 225 front 180 rear with Robs front ARB and the rear is too soft.
I too am thinking about Protech ali double adjustables and will be starting with the 225 on the rear (from the front), with prob 275 new up front.

Matt

[CMA]

While gathering information from an very experienced suspension setup guy, who does a lot of road and race setups and comes fairly highly recommended, I believe he's also setup alot of Strikers/Furys/Phoenixs too, I'm just sharing my thoughts and discussions with others, I'm not saying either one is right or wrong. There is always more than one right answer in these situations. Especially as we all drive in differing situations. And I'm sure down south you don't have the pot holes us northerners have to put up with

I have just put my old 200lb springs back on at the rear and I can tell it seems much happier at the rear on these compared to the 250lb. But the proof will be when I get back on track and see as there is no way I can push on the road like I can on track. Plus at 200lb there isn't a huge amount of suspension travel before it gets solid, which was my previous problem. The 250s stop this but I feel they might be a little too much for my driving locations. So going for the dipped arms gives me more travel to stick with 200lbs or even experiment with 180s.

So if you're after a set of 250lb or 200lb 9" springs I might have some going cheap once I get sorted.

I looked at the double adjustable ones but thought its just another setting for me to muddle up and confuse myself so I'll stick with the single adjustables.

One of the interesting things Procomp do is revalve the Protech shocks to suit lighter weight cars. Making the 13 click range far more usable. Plus his cost for the dampers is cheaper than direct from Protech....

[MattD]

LOL

Do you have tarmac oop noorf