clubstylus

I've entered the Stylus for Eelmoor , the only event for me this year so 12 months since I last competed. Still a bit of pain and stiffness since the hip surgery so not sure how it'll go. If I'm not up to it in the next couple of weeks I could cancel -- we'll see

Best of luck, Rob. I'll see if I can hitch a ride up with one of the other IOWCC members who's competing. I had planned to enter myself, but things have conspired against me. Next year

josephmoore wrote:Best of luck, Rob. I'll see if I can hitch a ride up with one of the other IOWCC members who's competing. I had planned to enter myself, but things have conspired against me. Next year

Re-next year.
The MSA in their great wisdom have changed the rules again. With the Stylus I'll need a full FIA certificated rollcage and on a car that's already built/fibreglass bonded body/riveted etc , apart from getting the cage that's really difficult. One Stylus owner has contacted me recently having been turned away at LOTON hillclimb due to rollbar issues. Custom Cages have told him that to get the cage designed/fitted signed off and certified/sticker etc , will cost £4500 (not sure if that's with/without vat)
Whilst that '' MAY '' be acceptable to some competitors who are at the early stage of developing their car for competition , in my case having been at it for 16 yrs and developed along the way at a cost you may think ridiculous/impossible(upwards of £40,000 inc first build of £16,000) -------------------- It's not at all acceptable
Then I have recently bought and rebuilt suspension and engine on a classic Alfa GTAm replica ---- which of course tends to hold value and possibly even increase in value if you wait long enough(as opposed to my Stylus which can only lose money) ------- a cage is already in it but it doesn't have a certificate FIA spec. I fitted new R888's which have been road legal ever since first sold(having no clue of MSA rules in 2016 saying that they are not---- more bloody EU crap)
On top of that both cars require that you now need HANS devices which is ok if you hadn't just bought a new helmet as I did in 2014 that doesn't have hans posts ---- because no one said you might need them in 2016.

So you can see where this is going --- cage ££££££££££ helmet £££ hans device £££ tyres £££££££ --- end of competition for me unless I've misread all the latest rules . There are some period cars ' let off ' these rules or some of them BUT no clear info on which period

Sorry for the rant Joe but this has really caught me out

Nightmare. Assuming the new safety regs only affect the Sports Libre class rather than the usual road going kit class?

josephmoore wrote:Nightmare. Assuming the new safety regs only affect the Sports Libre class rather than the usual road going kit class?

Well , any 1B tyres you've got right now on your car , even in road going , will result in a scrute failing your entry , not sure about cage though. Helmets that can accept hans plus the hans required for all classes.

The press release says HANS is only advisory for "Period Defined Vehicles, Road-going Series Production Cars and Road-going Specialist Production Cars.", so that's not too bad at least. Haven't seen anything about tyres yet - will have to look into it as I have 595rsrs on my car.

josephmoore wrote:The press release says HANS is only advisory for "Period Defined Vehicles, Road-going Series Production Cars and Road-going Specialist Production Cars.", so that's not too bad at least. Haven't seen anything about tyres yet - will have to look into it as I have 595rsrs on my car.

My Alfa is road going but won't be allowed in any road going class due to it's Arches/wide wheels/1B tyres and is modified from a standard GTV (BUT GTAm's were modified as standard so who knows) I still can't find out which would be '' period defined ''

If you don't mind me using construction industry speak, 4.5k for a rollcage sounds like someone is taking the piss, I think I would phone about to various companies for alternative quotes, there seems to be quite a few companies out there doing that type of work.
As I'm thinking about doing some sprinting next year, I've emailed the msa about the Rops needed, I would need a rear bar with back stays and a diagonal, this is for up to 2ltr road going specialist production class. Anything over 2ltr is going to need a full cage.

Have you thought about taking the blower off and changing class?

Shooter

Shooter63 wrote:If you don't mind me using construction industry speak, 4.5k for a rollcage sounds like someone is taking the piss, I think I would phone about to various companies for alternative quotes, there seems to be quite a few companies out there doing that type of work.
As I'm thinking about doing some sprinting next year, I've emailed the msa about the Rops needed, I would need a rear bar with back stays and a diagonal, this is for up to 2ltr road going specialist production class. Anything over 2ltr is going to need a full cage.

Have you thought about taking the blower off and changing class?

Shooter

---NO
For me to change class back to road going would totally spoil the car. That's where I started then having won the class championship in 2004 I moved into sports libre. To compete with these guys I lowered the car for the 4th and last time which mean't removing the headlights/winkers/wiring etc. This in turn led to changing the suspension front and rear more than once. In fact so many things that to lift the car again high enough to refit all mot requirements would mean re-thinking the suspension again . So much development lightening/lowering/removing things and not just once. More money plus TAX/INSURE/MOT to spoil the car and go slower.
Right now it's less than 80mm's from lower front chassis rail to the tarmac , so if lifted enough the wheels(very expensive bought last season)would look rediculous in the arches , as I've progressively cut chunks out of those arches as development progressed.
It doesn't have a blower either --- just sequential throttle bodies and probably wouldn't pass emissions

Competition ROPS is something I'm having to look at with my big-picture SSC hat on.
My current understanding is as follows:-

For 2016>>> sprinting
Up to 2 ltr = Rear hoop, stays & diagonal.
2ltr+ (& >2ltr forced induction) = Full cage & side impact bars.

The £4.5K Rob mentions isn't just to make the full cage, its for the cage manufacturer & MSA to certificate the design of the structure (through CAD simulation and possibly a formal MIRA crash test) & then be allowed to issue the required FIA/MSA ROPS compliance certificate.
Once a chassis specific cage design is approved they can then make as many as they like at a more sensible cost per item, issuing a ROPS certificate for each as necessary.
Basically, someone has to stump up the dollar for the testing, and for a serious kitcar business intending to offer a competition car.... that should be the car manufacturer.

The alternative to the full-on certificated route is to comply "directly" to the design diagrams in Section K of the blue book. ie correct materials & dimensions, exact copies of the drawn tube shapes & routes (no deviations), number of bends per leg, welded rear stays/bracing, side impact bars, mounting points & thread sizes, etc.

In conjunction with all of that, the base chassis needs to have the relevant ROPS & HANS/Harness mounting points. As anyone who's looked hard will know, this is a current weakness of the original Stylus chassis particularly where the front hoop feet need to bolt into the car. It is however, something that a can be designed-in to the next generation.

HANS Posts can be retro fitted to helmets without... just got to be confident enough to drill you're shell ! - Page 10 - http://hansdevice.com/Tech_files/HANS%2 ... 202014.pdf

Road-spec rear hoops can remain as-is btw, as they are mainly "for the look" & somewhere to bolt the harness straps....


Correct me if I'm wrong !!

I agree with Matt.

Mine is to the Blue book & cost £450. Front Hoop, Rear hoop Top Side bars & diagonal cross, door side bars, rear stays. I can only access through the roof now. Doors are waisted except to gain access for internal work. Rear stays are almost a waist of time as they fix to the small rear tubes, which are likely to fold in a rear collision. However it does strengthen the rear suspension links.

When scrutineers inspect for sprint/hillclimbs, I have to provide MSA log book & they check quite thoroughly. At races, no paperwork is required. Race cars dont seem to have log books of any sort, (although Im sure some must). Also the inspection is fairly brief with in indepth(ish) inspection of 1 particular item.

As regards to Hans will be required for racing, but not roadgoing sprints/hillclimbs. This is due to standard seat belts not being suable for Hans.

One side note regarding "home made" & Professionally made ROPs. The home made units are "scaffolding" type tube. Professional can use lighter tube. Due to a better ROP design & superior welding. This is part of the certification/test/registeration process. My car is overweight by 100kg, or underpowered. But not sure a £5000 ROP would have helped much.

@kevp do you have a pic or two of the cage please ?

kevp wrote:I agree with Matt.

Mine is to the Blue book & cost £450. Front Hoop, Rear hoop Top Side bars & diagonal cross, door side bars, rear stays. I can only access through the roof now. Doors are waisted except to gain access for internal work. Rear stays are almost a waist of time as they fix to the small rear tubes, which are likely to fold in a rear collision. However it does strengthen the rear suspension links.

When scrutineers inspect for sprint/hillclimbs, I have to provide MSA log book & they check quite thoroughly. At races, no paperwork is required. Race cars dont seem to have log books of any sort, (although Im sure some must). Also the inspection is fairly brief with in indepth(ish) inspection of 1 particular item.

As regards to Hans will be required for racing, but not roadgoing sprints/hillclimbs. This is due to standard seat belts not being suable for Hans.

One side note regarding "home made" & Professionally made ROPs. The home made units are "scaffolding" type tube. Professional can use lighter tube. Due to a better ROP design & superior welding. This is part of the certification/test/registeration process. My car is overweight by 100kg, or underpowered. But not sure a £5000 ROP would have helped much.

Kev --- you're assuming all competitors in Stylus's are roadgoing --- mine never has been except for 1999 to 2004 . Once in classes not roadgoing the cage is not advisery but compulsory. Furthermore , even if home constructors use cds or 45 and follow the 2016 BLUE BOOK patterns they won't pass scrutineering without the FIA/MSA certificate. If I'm wrong then I'll be very pleased but I've investigated this thoroughly and have been advised that a certified cage 2016 plus hans/helmet must be used next year.
I've had many years with my Stylus in class 13 which is SPORTS LIBRE and this year(although I've not competed yet in 2015) it'll be in B10 which is modified limited production and Replica's. A rule change several years ago nearly put me out of competition so I contacted the MSA directly and received a letter(which I keep in my log book)telling me I could enter it in B10 or Sports Libre. Perhaps another contact/letter is in order.
The tyres on it now wouldn't pass for 2016 in roadgoing but probably ok in B10 and Sports Libre. It's the damn cage rather than the new helmet and hans that's stopping me. By the way hans posts can only be fitted/or the holes drilled by the manufacturer and mines American !!!! You aren't allowed to drill yourself --- however , I'm not sure how the scrute would know , maybe a sticker ???

Hi Rob.

Yes I realise you are not in the road-going class. Therefore need to comply with the HANS requirement. Just pointing out if you are in a road registered class it will not be needed. But if a car has a full harness fitted the scruts may expect the driver to comply.

Regarding the ROPS, I have not read the 2016 blue book. But I doubt that it is a requirement to have a certified cage fitted to all of the cars.

The logistics of time & cost to replace 1000s of ROPS over the next 3 months will never be achieved. Also race cars do not have log books as a rule, & hence what chassis/registration number do you list on your ROPS certificate?

I do accept sprint & hillclimb cars have MSA log books & may well have different requirements regarding the Blue Book. I can remember as an example, that gloves became mandatory for sprints. But where not required in racing a couple of years ago!

I guess I will read the 2016 MSA regs now before I mislead anyone.


Dave - I will try & get some photos over the weekend.

Hi Rob.

Yes I realise you are not in the road-going class. Therefore need to comply with the HANS requirement. Just pointing out if you are in a road registered class it will not be needed. But if a car has a full harness fitted the scruts may expect the driver to comply.

Regarding the ROPS, I have not read the 2016 blue book. But I doubt that it is a requirement to have a certified cage fitted to all of the cars.

The logistics of time & cost to replace 1000s of ROPS over the next 3 months will never be achieved. Also race cars do not have log books as a rule, & hence what chassis/registration number do you list on your ROPS certificate?

I do accept sprint & hillclimb cars have MSA log books & may well have different requirements regarding the Blue Book. I can remember as an example, that gloves became mandatory for sprints. But where not required in racing a couple of years ago!

I guess I will read the 2016 MSA regs now before I mislead anyone.


Dave - I will try & get some photos over the weekend.